How To Make People Buy with Thomas Zoëga Ramsøy

Full Episode Transcript PDF: Click HERE

Roger Dooley [00:00:05]:
Welcome to Brainfluence. I’m Roger Dooley. Joining me today is my friend Thomas Ramsoy, and he is going to briefly explain who he is and what he does.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:00:14]:
Hi, Roger. Pleased to be here. Yeah. I’m Thomas. I’m the CEO and founder of Neurons. I have a background in both clinical neuropsychology, neuroscience, and I took a PhD in neurobiology. These kind of fancy imaging, brain imaging methodologies. And I’ve been doubling in this space of new marketing, consumer neuroscience, applied neuroscience, for the better half of 20 years.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:00:38]:
I would say. And I’m running my own company called Neurons, in which we are both testing with neuroscience methods, but also now building AI models that are basically predicting the stuff that we usually have to test every single time. And I wrote a book about it that is called How to Make People Buy.

Roger Dooley [00:00:57]:
Right, which I’ve got right here. It is a great book. I’ve read it. And I noticed, though, Thomas, you just mentioned neuromarketing and consumer neuroscience, but both of those terms are not on the cover of your book. Can you explain why you made that choice?

Thomas Ramsoy [00:01:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. So the choice I wanted to have a title that. And you can see the subtitle there is also. It’s actually about how I wanted to have a little cheeky title to make people a little kind of, you know, interested, but maybe a little bit annoyed. So, because are we really just brain tricking people to buy stuff or what are we doing? And what we find every time is that with newer marketing, with consumer neuroscience, we are basically seeing that it’s through engagement. It’s. It’s not through.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:01:46]:
Through trickery or, you know, malignant behaviors that we are making people buy. It’s actually through engagement and interest and desire that we do that. And I want to build that into. Into the. Into the book title. And I also wanted to avoid, you know, too much technical jargon in the beginning of the book, because I was kind of. I didn’t want this to be a technical book.

Roger Dooley [00:02:05]:
Thomas, do you think that the term neuromarketing still evokes skepticism as it did in its early days, or have we gotten past that by now?

Thomas Ramsoy [00:02:14]:
I think to. To some extent, we’re getting a little past it. I think that there’s renewed interest in the term. What I hear, at least, is that there’s a lot of people that are interested in it, and it kind of still divides the waters a little bit because people do get concerned if we’re doing the right ethical things by doing this. And then I think that it’s getting to the right side. But we’re still seeing that people can be a little skeptical.

Roger Dooley [00:02:35]:
There must be some lack of skepticism. In the book. You talk about the growth in neuromarketing revenues and it shows them approaching a billion dollars. Is that really the case? I mean, this must be pretty much under the radar because we don’t see that sort of visible presence for a market that’s that large.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:02:58]:
No, I think what we’ve seen is a lot of integration in a lot of companies of these technologies. So this is more kind of an all encompassing definition of neuromarketing is if you take some of the larger companies they have typically build their own little labs or they’re doing a lot of both outsourcing, but also insourcing of these capabilities in house. We have built some of these labs and the solutions for these companies and then neurons, we’re doing pretty well as well. So that means that we’re not even the biggest kid on the block. So I think that suggests to me that there is actually quite a lot of revenue out there. There’s a lot of interest in this and it manifest that there’s a lot of companies that wants to do that. But of course it ranges when I talk about neuromarketing and I do distinguish between neuromarketing and consumer neuroscience. Neuromarketing being more the industrial, the commercial application of this, and then consumer neuroscience being more the, the academic study of consumer behavior.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:03:58]:
I think that right now we’re focusing mainly on the commercial side because otherwise the academic side that’s much larger. That’s actually quite a lot of studies that are ongoing at this point.

Roger Dooley [00:04:07]:
Thomas, early in the book, you talk about behavioral economics and behavioral science and how they relate to or overlap with neuromarketing. Explain that relationship.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:04:20]:
When you look at behavioral economics and you know, nudging and all these kind of behavioral designs, there’s a lot of interest in that. We see that people are really interested in understanding what drives people’s behavior, what makes us tick, what makes us do good or bad decisions, so to speak. And there’s been, you know, the economics basically took in psychology for quite some, you know, many years ago, you know, even decades ago. And it showed that it had an added value that, you know, all the way back to the 70s and 60s with Kahneman, Tversky, you know, all these kind of researchers doing psychology and economics and showed that it had an added value. The way I see it is that psychology has kind of moved on and it’s kind of integrated neuroscience as part of its apparatus and the way that we both study the mind, but also the way we understand the mind as well. And I think that in economics, there’s been a kind of a slow reckoning now that they need to do the same thing, and that’s why we end up with neuromarketing. So. So to me, I see myself first and foremost as a psychologist and secondary as a neuroscientist.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:05:23]:
For me, neuroscience is just a tool and a way to understand the human mind and human behavior and not the other way around.

Roger Dooley [00:05:30]:
What do you mean by neurobehavioral design?

Thomas Ramsoy [00:05:33]:
Oh, that’s. That’s a good question. That’s a whole can of worm to open, to be honest. But I think that it kind of goes into, if you talk about behavioral design, the limits of behavioral design, when we talk about things today, just by looking at people’s behavior, how can we nudge people and affect people’s behavior? It tends to focus on a kind of almost like a mapping exercise. So if we do this, people tend to do this over here. If we do this over here, then people tend to, you know, do other behaviors, but it doesn’t really open the box, so to speak, to make us understand exactly why people are doing the way they’re doing. So with neurobehavioral design, what you’re doing there is that you are trying to open the box and see what happens inside, to say, okay, it’s because people have an emotional response, or it’s because they are not paying attention to what we want them to do, for example, and this is what the neuroscience component actually provides is an extra layer of understanding and a new, you know, set of tools in the toolbox that we can kind of dig a little bit deeper to understand what drives people’s choices.

Roger Dooley [00:06:37]:
Thomas, one of the things that has been known for quite a while, and you’ve written about it and I’ve written about it, but many people still find counterintuitive, is that our brains decide before we’re consciously aware of making a decision. What’s the research on that? And how do you explain that to somebody who says, well, that doesn’t make any sense. I’m sitting here, I’m thinking about this, and, okay, now I’m going to decide right now. And you’re saying, well, no, actually, you decided seven seconds ago or a minute ago. Explain that.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:07:09]:
There’s so many ways we can give examples of that people find more kind of intuitive they can relate to. And it’s you know, what I tend to do is I talk about everyday behaviors that you do and you take for granted. Just, you know, walking from point A to point B. You don’t have to think about every single step you do. It’s an autopilot thing. You just say, hey, I’m just going to go over there, for example, or if you take up a cup and you drink from it. So those are really, really basic things. But you also know that these behaviors are.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:07:38]:
They are learned, they’re acquired, because when you were born, you didn’t know how to pick up a cop, you didn’t know how to walk. You had to learn it, you have to overlearn it, and it became part of your aut autopilot behaviors. So I use that very often as a kind of example of how we should think about, you know, human behaviors in general. And we see that the problem with, you know, the brain is that it’s such a kind of an energy hog. It just requires so much energy. It basically takes up about 20 to 25% of the energy budget of the brain, of the body, although it just makes out about 2% ish of the body. Right? So, so, so what we see is that whatever the brain can do to reduce consumption of energy, it will do. And one way you can do that is to turn things into autopilot behaviors.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:08:22]:
And that’s why we have certain types of behaviors that just automatically happen. So a good example from consumer psychology is that if I just say toothpaste to you, automatically you will start thinking about Colgate, for example. And that automaticity to it is something that is a good indication of how we are making decisions before we even feel that we make up our minds. And this is one of the things I try to talk about in the book as well, is how we need to kind of almost like if you take a football game and you see, was that a fault, for example, or basketball game, for example, was there a misstep or was there something wrong during the game? You have to stop and you have to go to slow motion. And I think that what we need to be able to better to understand is we need to also think about that. We have now the opportunity to go slow motion style to understand exactly what happens millisecond by millisecond in the brain of people. And that’s when people understand those analogies and those metaphors. That’s almost like a penny drop moment.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:09:21]:
And they get. It’s almost like they see this for the first time and they really get Interested in it?

Roger Dooley [00:09:26]:
Yeah. I’m not sure I completely agree that you’re going to convince everybody with that because it’s just so counterintuitive that a decision has been made before we’re consciously aware of it. But. But I take your point, Thomas. Talk about micro decisions. What are micro decisions?

Thomas Ramsoy [00:09:43]:
Yeah, we tend to typically say that when we’re making decisions. The intuitive way that we think about it, but also the classical kind of economic way to think about this, is that we’re out there, we’re gathering information, we’re weighing the pros and cons of that information, and then we make up our minds, and then we act that out, so to speak. And what we see again and again when we look into the neuroscience of behaviors and decision making is that we make decisions all the time. That means that what I’m paying attention to is actually a decision in itself, because you can’t pay attention to everything at once. You have to ignore certain things in order to pay attention to something. So that’s like a micro decision in itself. How you respond emotionally to something leads you to pay even more or less attention to something. So that is also an attention whether to process information so actually read a boring journal, for example, or to go on social media instead.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:10:39]:
That’s a decision in itself. And what to remember and what to forget is kind of a decision as well. So that means that again, going to that slow motion allows us to pick out those different micro decisions, and it allows us to almost like diagnose the problem of why people don’t click on an ad, or they don’t subscribe to whatever you are offering them, or they don’t check out at the end of going online in the store.

Roger Dooley [00:11:02]:
For example, one of the interesting studies you mentioned involves paint purchases and a company named Valspar that, again, it’s kind of counterintuitive because subjects were shown a series of ads. Some included an ad for this particular brand of paint, others didn’t. And subsequently, maybe not too surprisingly, the people who had seen the ad were more likely to make that purchase. But what was, again, sort of counterintuitive is that in general, they did not remember seeing the ad. So as advertisers, we think that, okay, well, first we have to get the customer’s attention, and then they have to remember what they saw in order to influence their decision. So what. Explain a little bit more about that study and what it shows.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:11:50]:
Yeah, we. We have this golden opportunity. We work quite a lot in the retail space as well, for many years. And what we have this opportunity to do is to test the effects of prior exposure to advertising on in store behaviors. And we wanted to do that both in terms of of course what people ended up, you know, buying, but also to try to micro diagnose if you like, you know, did they actually pay? Was it driven by more attention, was it emotional responses? Did that lead to, you know, an increase in awareness? And so what we did was actually to have three different versions, three different groups, people randomly assigned to three different groups. One group was exposed to a series of ad as part of. We basically had the cover story was that that people were exposed to ads as part of a calibration of the EEG system then and then their control group, they saw just a string of different ads. I think There were like 20 ads in total.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:12:43]:
And the two other groups, they saw either a 15 second or a 30 version of a Valspar ad as part of intermixed in those in the, in the string of ads. And what we wanted to do was to see first of all did that change people behavior, did that change their attention when they were looking for paint, for example, in a store environment? And did that eventually lead to other types of responses? And what we saw was that, you know, we, we sent people into the store, they had a, almost like a shopping list. We had recruited people that were actually looking paint as a thing for doing in their, you know, they were doing DIY people. So they wanted to, to paint their home, their living room, for example. So they were actually, you know, the right, the right target group for this. And we saw that first of all the, the, the Valspar groups, if you like, they spent much more time exploring the Valspar shelves compared to the competitor brands. They kind of looked, spend more time on it. They explored the products and the coloring much more.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:13:41]:
They had stronger emotional response, so a stronger kind of approach behavior if you like. They were less price sensitive. So they chose typically a little bit more expensive options. And they were much more likely. I think there was almost 100% of them, but it’s 95% or something like that were actually purchasing the Valspar. As I think that the control group that didn’t see the Valspar, I think they bought something like 70% of them bought Valspar. But then the Valspar groups actually bought something like 85 to 95%. And the longer ad actually had the greater impact.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:14:15]:
But as you said, when we ask people during checkout, we do this kind of, you know, after the whole thing we actually do a debriefing interview on Them. And what we’re asking there is, first of all, you know, was the equipment, was it annoying? Did you think about it? Because then we need to flag people if they have kind of a negative experience with it. But then we also kind of do a stepwise debriefing. We start at the top and say, hey, did you, did you notice anything about, you know, why did you actually buy this? Valspar, for example? And people came with all different kinds of stories that the color remind me of my grandma’s home or whatever it was. And then we asked them, do you remember seeing any ad for Valspar? And most people said, no, they hadn’t. And then we even showed them the ad and people then people typically recognized the ad, but they still said, no, it didn’t affect my choice. So we have this complete disconnect, so to speak, in terms of what people choose, and we see that it actually has an impact on their choice. But subjectively and consciously, we tend to kind of ignore that and say, hey, it’s my choice still.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:15:18]:
So that was kind of part of the study there.

Roger Dooley [00:15:21]:
These days, Thomas, most advertising is digital. I mean, there’s still print advertising, of course, but in the digital world, it’s really kind of distracted world, hard to get people’s attention. You described something called the one second strategy. What’s that based on and what does it mean?

Thomas Ramsoy [00:15:37]:
Yeah, that was a very interesting study we did a few years ago with the Mobile Marketing association and the Advertising Research foundation in the US and also in collaboration with a lot of the social media channels like Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest and other channels as well. At that time, there was a kind of rule of thumb that they basically thought that the, the length that you had to be in view for an audience to actually pick up on the ad was at least three seconds. So you had to be on screen for three seconds before you actually had an impact. We knew from psychological research all the way back to 100 years ago, we know that brief exposures can still have an effect on attention, emotional responses, memory and things like that. And what we found was that actually even just within the first second, we saw a lot of different things going on. We saw that even, you know, within the first 2 to 300 milliseconds. Actually, even before that, we saw that people, you know, an ad could grab attention even down to 1/10 of a second, for example, we saw that an ad can actually grab attention. And then within 300 milliseconds, so a third of a second, we saw that if there was an Emotional bump.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:16:54]:
They would tend to stick around the ad for, for a little longer. Then we saw around 700 milliseconds. That’s when, you know, cognition came on. So comprehension of the messaging and, you know, understanding what was going on. And then Even at the 1 second mark we saw that that was when people started to subjectively remember the ad as well. So even within the first second we saw that there was a lot of reactions going on that were very kind of predictive of how the ad will succeed later on. And then the interesting thing was that on average ads people stuck around the ad for about 3.4 seconds. So that means that the 3 second rule was actually kind of correct.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:17:37]:
But you don’t need to be a minimum of three seconds. That was the maximum typically you would have at your disposal. So that meant that advertisers had to learn how to communicate within the first second to create engagement, to be attended, to create awareness and understanding and then to see, can you actually stick around. And what we see now is that, that 3.4 second, the reason, you know, we recently released a report that actually suggests now that it’s actually down to 2.2 seconds that people stick around with a social media ad. And it depends very much on the, on the channel you’re looking at.

Roger Dooley [00:18:16]:
So how does an advertiser do that? If you tell them, okay, you’ve got to really get all this done in one second, what changes do they make to their ad, what do they incorporate, what do they take out?

Thomas Ramsoy [00:18:27]:
There’s actually a big variance around that 2.2 seconds or 3.4 seconds. So it really depends on how you approach the first few seconds. So one of the biggest things that we found is that advertisers in general, they tend to think that they almost like design the ad as if they have 10 seconds. So they’re, they want to create a compelling narrative, they want to do something that is interesting to people and then they smack the ad, the brand or the call to action, for example, at the very end of the ad. Unfortunately, people are very good at picking up on something being an ad. So that means that you need to actually deliver your message between the first couple, two, three seconds. So it kind of makes advertising a little bit more boring, especially on social media. But you have to focus on getting the main message across.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:19:19]:
So if you’re doing a brand building exercise, focus on getting the brand across in a natural setting very early on. Instead of waiting at the very end, if you’re doing a call to action, bring that appeal very early on into the ad. And we see that those that do that, you’re kind of more honest with your audience and you don’t kind of expect them to stick around for whatever narrative you want to tell them. So it does kind of challenge how you’re doing advertising today. But we also see that today that advertising in general is failing. He’s failing more than before, I would say.

Roger Dooley [00:19:48]:
Something that Dan Hill discovered long ago was that the lower right hand corner of an ad got very few views, like very few people looked at it. And that was a long time ago. But in your book, you talk about the fact that it seems like advertisers, still, many of them, have not caught up with that finding. And you’ve got some research of your own, explain about the corner of death and how to avoid that problem.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:20:16]:
Yeah, I think that advertisers in general have this tendency, especially designers, the creative designers, they have this idea that we have a path through the ad, that both in videos and images and in banners as well, that we are going through the messaging and we end up very at the end, at the brand of the call to action. What seems to happen is that when you do, and as the previous research showed, and our research shows is that is not even 5% of people are paying attention down at the bottom right corner. So if you do eye tracking studies, you find that a maximum. We find a maximum of 4% actually paying attention down there. So we didn’t label it the corner of death, but Hill did. And I think that others have done it before as well. But what we see is that still today, if you just do a kind of broad swath of all ads available, about 50% of all ads, they do that mistake. So there’s free advice for everyone here.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:21:16]:
Just don’t do it. If you have to do it, there might be a brand design guide or something that tells you to do it. There are ways you can get around it, such as you can have some movement. If it’s a video ad, you can increase the contrast, for example, to make it pop a little bit more. So there are ways you can do it, but on average, you should never do that. The solution is actually to put it more centrally, put it more naturally as a part of the ad. So if it’s, if it’s a product of some sort, make sure that the person in the ad, for example, is doing something with the product so it’s actually in view. Otherwise people are just going to ignore it.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:21:51]:
And the interesting thing is that we’ve now trained Multiple AI models on the huge data set that we have. And one of the first things that this AI picked up on was that corner of death. It will basically not. Basically, it’s very good at predicting low attention in the bottom right corner.

Roger Dooley [00:22:07]:
You know, every business on the planet, I think is being affected by AI in one way or another. How is AI changing neuromarketing? How’s it being incorporated? How is it changing things?

Thomas Ramsoy [00:22:17]:
Yeah, we are very much at the forefront of that. In the way that we have found that there’s a couple of steps that have been happening here in the few 10 years or so is that first there was the realization that there are certain types of behaviors, certain types of brain responses that are very comparable in a relatively small group. And when you measure those types of responses in even a small group, that can be used to predict in market effects. So this has been shown again and again for anything from people looking at movie trailers and how that predicts box office sales numbers. We’ve seen that for music hits, we’ve seen it for financial services. We’ve seen it for a lot of different types of behaviors. So that the good analogy I tend to use is that if you imagine watching people watching a horror movie, so if you go to a cinema to watch a horror movie, but you observe people instead of watching the movie itself, and you can almost like you can jot down the timeline of that movie and you just notice every time people jump in the seats and you could basically use that timeline to go to the next hundred people that are watching the same video and you can make a very precise prediction of exactly when people are going to jump in their chairs. Right.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:23:38]:
So what we are looking at is identifying those types of neural behavioral responses. So brain responses, but also behavioral responses that are highly coherent in a small group. And we are then doubling down and collecting tons and tons of data on that and creating and then going to machine learning models and see, can you actually predict those responses just from the assets itself? When we talk about AI models, we tend to be very kind of hyped around generative AI models. And I think that one thing that you see again and again is that we can actually use different types of AI models as well. There’s something called predictive AI that you can use to predict certain types of outcome. Now if you want to check the weather for tomorrow, because you want to take a hike, for example, someplace, you’re not going to check an LLM for that. Yeah. You’re not going to use ChatGPT to ask for the weather, unless it checks another source for you.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:24:34]:
So the weather models are actually predictive models. So in the very much same sense, we can use predictive models to predict human behavior as well. So what we are doing is that we’re uploading basically an asset, like an image or a video. We take all the accompanying responses that people have shown and we tell the AI, here are the responses, here’s the asset. We want you to learn how people respond to that and create a predictor model so that next time I upload a new image, you should be good at predicting how people will respond. So that’s basically what we’re doing. There’s actually a third version of an AI. There’s multiple, but one we tend to use as well is we call it suggestive AI.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:25:15]:
And this type of AI model is where you take your train or you fine tune an existing model, a language model, to actually be a recommendation engine for you. So it’s almost like it’s a way to kind of tailor, make your ChatGPT or Claude or whatever you want to use. Actually, I know one of my friends up in Norway has used my book to create a suggestive AI model that he called Thomas AI. So he basically uses my book and says, hey, Thomas, can you help me now, based on your book, to design me a better ad campaign? So that’s a way to do that and that becomes like a recommendation engineering for you as well. And this is also software we’re dabbling in as well.

Roger Dooley [00:25:55]:
Very interesting. I’ve done something similar. I’ve got sort of a Roger AI, but I haven’t published, but I’m used, trained it on my books and writing. So yeah, it’s, it’s pretty interesting. In fact, I had Marshall Goldsmith, the coach, legendary coach, on the show a while back and he’s launched Marshal Bot, which is basically a compilation of all of his work that this is a major project. This wasn’t just dumping a few things into. ChatGPT had a team of eight developers in India working on this, but basically putting all of his knowledge and writing and combining that with a little bit of real world knowledge too, from outside into something that would give advice based on his ideas. And I played with it and even asked him a question, asked his bot the question, and it was very interesting.

Roger Dooley [00:26:52]:
We, we agreed that the bot actually gave maybe a slightly better answer than he did in, in when we were just chatting on the podcast.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:26:59]:
Yeah. Best of all, it doesn’t, Best of all, it doesn’t get tired.

Roger Dooley [00:27:02]:
Right, right, right. And it Never forgets too. That’s the thing. Like sadly, you know, people ask me about something I wrote in Brain Fluence and yeah, in chapter 73 there and I’m. Huh, wait a minute, let me, let me get the book. I gotta check that. But Thomas, one thing that, you know, neuromarketing has always been seemingly, seemingly something that was good for big companies, you know, big brands, the Coca Cola’s and BMWs, that could afford either to hire expensive contractors or even build their own labs and such. But how would you advise a small business or a very small agency, are there tools out there that they can use to, you know, employ some of these techniques and you know, accomplish some of those same kinds of results?

Thomas Ramsoy [00:27:51]:
Yeah, yeah, I think that definitely there’s, I always think that there’s. The way I try to work is that, you know, one of the things I like to focus on is to basically try to enable people to make better decisions. So. And I find that there are at least two different ways of doing that. One is through information and inspiration and motivation. So how like we’re doing now, we’re sharing some knowledge with, we’re sharing, you know, through books, for example, through talks. How can we make people understand that, you know, there’s something called the corner of death. That, that’s a, that’s a, that’s a free advice, so to speak.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:28:25]:
So listen to those advices. I think that’s one thing, there’s a lot of knowledge out there that you can tap into and experiment with. And then there’s the second approach, which is to provide tools that, that help you in the moment that you need it now. With AI, these tools become more and more readily available, they become more affordable. So there are certain solutions that you can use AI now to help you for example, make better decisions if you want to plan your campaign, for example. And I think that there’s no other way around it, that you have to start going with it and try stuff out. And I think that the problem today that I hear again, again from, from smaller and mid sized companies is that they, and also actually for big companies is that they have, part of their stress is that they don’t even know what is out there. They have a hard time figuring out what options do I have and what is the latest thing to occur.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:29:24]:
The second is how should I vet these different things, what parameters, what KPI should I evaluate this on? And also if I choose a new tool, how should I onboard that in try to make the best of it and how can I measure that it actually has a good ROI from, for me. So I think that part of the problem is this old classical technology adoption problem as always. But today we see that these technologies are becoming more and more available to people but they still have a hard time understanding what is available and how to use it. I think that there’s a task for all of us that are using this to educate the market, to provide tutorials, to provide examples. You know, working with people like yourself, for example, that are working with these clients and help them understand is one of the things that we are trying to do as well. And then hopefully there’s going to be a whole palette of different options available. We see that there are some players in the space that we’re operating in, but we’re always going to welcome more to come available here because there’s plenty of room, there’s plenty of growth for, for all of us. And yes, we are catering to, to the major league if you like.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:30:34]:
But there definitely is a lot of players that I would like to have, you know, in, in the, you know, the startups but also the, the mid sized companies that would love and should actually start using this. So it’s a long roundabout, but I think that, I think that AI is making all these things more available and it’s, you know, moving really fast. But I think that people should just, you know, try it out, just get acquainted with it because it’s not going to go slower from now, it’s just going to go faster. So get on the bandwagon now Thomas.

Roger Dooley [00:31:06]:
How can people find you and your ideas and your book?

Thomas Ramsoy [00:31:09]:
So they can find me on thomasramsoy.com that’s my personal website where I put my latest dabblings in the blogosphere if you like, if you call it that. Still I run a couple of blogs, so both on the Thomas Ramsay. I also have something called Brain Ethics as well on medium that people can read. And if they want to check out the website for my company it’s neuronsinc.com and also if you just Google that that’s, that’s still gonna pop up fairly, fairly easy as well. My name as well and always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn.

Roger Dooley [00:31:44]:
Super. Thomas, thanks so much for being on the show. It’s been great to catch up.

Thomas Ramsoy [00:31:47]:
Likewise Roger, thanks for having me.